Why You’re Not Broken: Live Caller Interview on Healthy Anger & Boundaries | (#156) The Masculine Psychology Podcast with David Tian

Welcome to the Masculine Psychology Podcast, where we answer key questions in relationships, attraction, success, and fulfillment. Now, here’s your host, world-renowned therapist and life coach, David Tian.

David: Okay, Ryan. So, I’ve some of the intake forms, so I have sort of a background.

Ryan: Right.

David: Hopefully you can just let me know, how can I help you?

Ryan: I mean, I don’t know, I’ve been on a bit of a journey, I guess, for certain reasons. I ended my marriage in July last year. I was with a partner of mine that had a lot of trauma in her life, and I was aware of it and I was encouraging her to work on herself and deal with that stuff, but she always kind of worked on her business. Her career was kind of at the forefront with her. It was her image, right? It was a lot of her, right? And I always kind of thought [01:07.0]

I think what happened was that, when I was younger, I had done some work. I was brought into counseling. I was quite young, in my teenage, because I was quite a handful and all things were . . . so I was I guess in the care of the government ministry, to a certain degree, for counseling, it was like that. I guess I always thought, after I was done with that, that I was done, right? Like I had fixed myself. I was done, right? So, I was good and off I went. But I think after our relationship ended and I became aware of some things, then I realized that I needed to work on myself. So, that’s kind of what happened. I went down . . . I tried the family systems therapy, I think it was. Yeah, IFS?

David: [Yes.]

Ryan: And I connected with one guy for that. I think he was fairly new to it. We just didn’t really connect. I did about two, maybe three sessions with him, and I just didn’t connect with him. [02:03.1]

I was seeing another counselor. What happened was our marriage started to unravel, and in January of last year, I started to try to get some help for myself to try to help dealing with her, because I knew she had trauma and I knew that I was not doing very well at managing her. I mean, not her, but just being there for her and understanding. I ended up at a counseling thing, which is basically with the university here. It’s very cheap and reasonable, and I was active with him, and then he and I were seeing each other for quite some time, but then he said that he was seeing, actually, a psychoanalysis. Or is that correct?

David: Psychoanalyst?

Ryan: Yeah, psychoanalyst, and so then he said I should reach out for something like that. That’s what I ended up doing. I found that and I’ve been working with one, with him since August of last year. We’ve been seeing each other weekly for basically that whole time period and it’s been pretty good actually for me to start to see what my– [03:05.7]

When my partner and I were first separated, I really started to dive into trauma and just seeing how I essentially fucked up, right? Because I cared for her and it hurt to lose her. Then, as I was going through that stuff, then all sudden, I kind of just realized to myself, Whoa. We’re talking about triggers, and I was like, I’ve got triggers, like I just couldn’t– Then, all of a sudden, it kind of clicked with me. I’m like, I’m pretty cool, chill, calm all the time, but then something happens, and I go from zero to 60, and I’m losing my marbles, and I could never– 

I just realized that I have some triggers, and so then he and I worked through some things with that, and then through work in emergency services. We have this. I went to this first-responder retreat thing for four days. That was pretty helpful as well, connecting with other individuals, group therapy. [03:58.0]

So, yeah, it’s just kind of been going down the road with that. When you said that you were bringing people on, I was like, just another step in the right direction, essentially, and I’ve been following you for a very long time, back in the 2015–2016 range when you were maybe not necessarily where you’re at now, and then just kind of kept on following you through the years and seeing you progress and progress and things like that. Obviously, when I’d seen the opportunity, I was like, certainly, it’s not going to hurt. I don’t know what we can take from this, but I mean, certainly, you can dive into my story a bit and try to help me understand where I’m at to a certain degree and then kind of move from there, I guess.

David: Oh, great. It’s great to connect with you and it’s flattering that you’ve been following me since 2015. That’s cool. Great, I kind of have a background now of where you’re at. I’m still not sure. How can I help you? Do you have a goal or an outcome or a result?

Ryan: Yeah. I mean, obviously I want to be able to understand myself better so that I can manage dealing with people, my family, to a certain degree. [05:03.4]

David: Dealing with people.

Ryan Yeah, sometimes I can– it’s one of the things that came out of that with my therapist that I have a very high standard of men, and if they don’t meet that standard, I just don’t really have a lot of use for them, or I get upset if I’m dealing with people in life when they don’t have a certain level of standard or ethics to a certain degree.

David: What’s that like? How do you notice that in your day-to-day life, this high standard?

Ryan: It’s frustrating.

David: When does it come into play? When was the last time someone didn’t meet this standard?

Ryan: I can give you an example and it doesn’t necessarily have to be men, but a lot of times it is. When people are driving and they just aren’t that good. This is one example that’s come up is that when, say, I’m driving and someone does something—there are the rules to follow and then they’re not following it clearly, and they’re fingering me or something like that—then I’ve lost it. I’m losing my marbles, right? Or if I’m dealing with–

David: With strangers? People you don’t have a relationship with. [06:00.2]

Ryan: Even then, yeah. To a certain degree, yeah. For sure, yeah, probably more strangers. Yeah.

David: More strangers?

Ryan: Oh, yeah.

David: So, you lose your marbles, and then what do you do as a result?

Ryan: I mean, I can think of two times that that’s gotten pretty elevated that it was almost like a Dukes of Hazzard chase through town one time. I remember, after I was done, I just sat down and I was like, What in the world just happened there? There was no reason for that, right, to get to that level, right? That was awful.

David: In one of your emails to me or the team, you mentioned that the high standard you’ve discovered, the high standard you have for men is related to your father not being there or having a low standard for himself. [06:48.3]

Ryan: I think because he didn’t involve himself in my life. My mom and he were divorced, separated when I was quite young. I want to say around a year. I don’t doubt that my mom made it difficult probably for him to be involved, but he never did, right? He was never involved in my life.

Yeah, so I guess, basically, that’s one of the things that we’ve talked about with the therapist, that he didn’t, and it has a bit to do with because, with my kids, I’ve been involved in my kids’ life, so I have that expectation. When it happened in my situation, I stepped up to the plate and no matter, even though their mother made life a little difficult for me, I still was in their life the whole time, right? So, it was important to me back then for that, not sure why, now knowing, obviously not having my father to step up and be involved, and why not? It was a problem, right?

David: Yeah, it makes tons of sense, so when you see another man with a low standard for himself, like giving you the bird in the car, you’re actually reacting to your father.

Ryan: Possibly. I’m all ears. [08:01.1]

David: Oh, that’s your analysis. I thought that was your analysis. I thought I was just reading this.

Ryan: Oh no, I’m not saying that. It’s just that I have a very high expectation.

David: That makes sense, but you’ve hurt yourself in the process. You’re not actually making anything better. That’s what I was asking, what’s the actual outcome? If you had a high standard for other people and you saw some man raping a woman in the alley, and as a result of this high standard, you stepped in and saved her, that’s great. I don’t see any problem with that high standard. That’s a good standard. But in your case, the high standard just hurts you more and doesn’t actually make the world a better place.

Ryan: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

David: So, then this is also exaggerated. We’re trying to understand why you kind of even blank out, because you kind of come to, after The Dukes of Hazzard chase.

Ryan: It’s not even that I’m blanking out. I’m fully in control of what’s going on to a certain degree, like I remember the whole thing and just essentially elevating it after, but I remember after it was done and I just sat down, I was just like, Wow, I could have been caught on [tape.] Someone could have videotaped that, right? There were so many things that could have happened. [09:11.1]

David: In IFS, this would be called a firefighter part, who comes on –

Ryan: Okay.

David: – and all of these parts are children parts, all right, so they were reacting to whatever happened way back then. It makes a lot of sense if the misplaced anger that should be directed towards your father is now directed towards various father type figures, which is all men, I suppose, and especially the less you know about them, I guess, the easier it is to project that. But it seems like you’re already exploring that with your current therapist, so that’s great.

Ryan: Yeah. I’m becoming a little bit less reactive, for sure.

David: Great. Yeah. How’s your relationship with your father now?

Ryan: I don’t have [one]. I’ve never ever had a relationship with my father.

David: Is he alive? [09:54.6]

Ryan: He passed away back in about 2018–2019, give or take. Yeah, so I’ve never been in contact with him, never spoken with him, nothing like that. And again, I just don’t really have a lot of respect for him now after that as well, because at that point, he had four other kids, so I have essentially four other half brothers, sisters, and they had been reaching out to me at that time when he was passing away. He had a chance to make it right and he didn’t even reach out then, so he just didn’t conduct himself. Yeah, he just kind of left me high and dry, so it was, I don’t know, like, this is what it is.

David: Sounds like you’ve got a lot of unprocessed resentment and anger.

Ryan: Yeah.

David: Are you going through anything to process that?

Ryan: No, no, I don’t think so. I think I’m just becoming aware of it, to be honest with you.

David: Oh, great, yeah, awareness is the first necessary step. Have you been to his [grave]? Does he have a tombstone or a grave?

Ryan: No, I didn’t even bother to. Nothing like that at all. It just basically, for me, was like, well. Obviously, he kind of puts the final nail in the whole situation. [11:08.8]

David: Sorry, what puts it? His passing puts it?

Ryan: His passing and not him even reaching out or leaving. It really doesn’t have anything to do with– I’m well off, so it’s not like I need financial support from him, but he never did financially support me when I was growing up. He never paid child support and left my mom. We struggled back then. But now I’ve had a career. I’ve been in my career for almost 30 years, so I’m set to a certain degree, but just not even maybe including me in the will to say, “Hey, you know, you matter,” not that I needed that. It’s not the financial aspect of it.

David: Yeah, I can hear the anger and the resentment, which is completely reasonable. I think anyone listening would be on your side as you’re describing him. And yet, he’s passed, so to some degree, he’s got some kind of peace, but you’re still holding this burden of him. He’s haunting your mind. I mean, this wouldn’t matter to you. You wouldn’t care this much unless you wanted to be loved by your biological father, which we all do. [12:12.8]

Ryan: Sure.

David: And that’s why it hurts so much.

Ryan: Right, so I’m probably not fully mad at him to a certain degree, because I know my mom and she doesn’t make things easy, and she probably encouraged or made it difficult for him to even think about that, because she moved a fairly large distance away. Right? She plays a part in this as well.

David: How is your relationship with your mom now?

Ryan: No, no, my mom and I have never, ever, for the most part, ever had a very good relationship.

David: So, you don’t see her much now.

Ryan: I try to see her as little as possible. We used to see each other more when the kids were younger, but both boys are quite a bit older now, right? They’re well on their way, so they’re doing their own thing, and she’s just so frustrating to be around sometimes. [13:03.2]

David: Right. Okay. One of the things that we would do if we were in an ongoing therapeutic relationship would be to have a way to speak to the dad in your mind and the mom in your mind. Your mom is still here, so you could have those conversations with her in real life.

Ryan: Right.

David: It wouldn’t require her to respond in any way, because this is you with these parts of you that are holding these resentments, being able to offload them. In Gestalt therapy, there’s a really great technique called the empty chair technique, so if your therapist knows how to do that sort of thing, then that would be also a great way to process this. But you’re already on the way. You’re on that first step of awareness and noticing how it affects your life now in the day-to-day.

Ryan: Right, yeah. [13:54.8]

David: And all of this anger towards your father and your mother, your mother also for demonizing your father to you—and we now know that this is a sort of a child abuse where you’re demonizing the other parent, especially if it’s the same gender as you, the parent that’s being demonized—we internalize all of that, and half of you by DNA, and we know this instinctively, is the biological other, the father or the mother, whoever is being demonized.

She’s kind of, as she’s attacking the father without him being there to you as a child, to some degree, you must feel that as an attack on yourself, that half of you anyway that you’ve inherited biologically. So, all of that is going on and this all seems like unprocessed resentment, and we haven’t moved to the stage of grief yet because that anger is still below the surface. Okay. I think you’re doing great. You’re making good progress on this.

Ryan: Yeah, I just think I’ve come a long way in the last year or so, for sure, definitely more since January, February, for sure, and then with this therapist now, I would say, for the last six weeks, has been where, obviously, as he’s dialing it down and we’re starting to talk about things. Yeah, I’m starting to. The stuff I sent to you, right? It’s starting to make a lot of sense to me, right? [15:18.0]

David: Fantastic.

Ryan: To be honest with you, in my career, to be honest with you, when I first started in my job, it’s always been the job that I wanted in a snap, and then when I got there, it was actually partly one of the biggest points of my life, because the people, the men that I worked with, were not a lot of them are very good, high-quality people, right? There were a lot of bullies and probably people dealing with their own shit to a certain degree.

About the first five, eight years of that, I actually contemplated leaving that and going and doing something else. But now people have left, retired, moved on, and we hired more intelligent people and the atmosphere around there has definitely improved, so that makes me when I go to work now, at least I go to work, I enjoy when I go there. [16:07.4]

David: That sounds great, and you’re a first responder, so you’re an EMS emergency services.

Ryan: Yeah.

David: All right, good. Is there anything else that I can help you with? It looks like the psychoanalysis is serving you well so far.

Ryan: Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I guess that it is. I don’t know a lot about IFS therapy. I know you talk about a lot in your podcasts and I hear about these parts and everything like that, and I wonder. You talked about the firefighter, right? That part there, I feel that a lot coming out.

David: Oh? When was the last time? You mentioned it when you were in the car and this guy gave the middle finger, and so that was like a firefighter kind of took over?

Ryan: Yeah, or if I’m just dealing with people that are unreasonable. I really believe in fairness to a certain degree. It really bothers me when people don’t treat me fairly, because I really believe in treating others very fairly. [17:05.5]

David: That sounds great. What was the example like that? What happened in life, in real life?

Ryan: I mean, just to give you a good example, just earlier today at work, a person, we were having a discussion, and it wasn’t really both ways. He kept on cutting me off and then saying essentially what I was saying was wrong, and I got to the point where I could feel I was getting elevated and I basically was calling him out on it. I’m like, I work with 120 other men here and not a lot of them cut me off like you do right now, you’re not really listening. I could just feel like my old self was ready to come out, right, right, and really lose it to a certain degree.

David: Right. You understand that that degree of anger is directed at your father? [17:58.6]

Ryan: No, I don’t. But, okay, I’d be curious to know more.

David: Okay, good, so we can do some work here. Part of what I’m careful with on these one-off sessions is, if we do this deeper inner work and we don’t have an ongoing relationship, then I can’t follow up. Usually what we need to do is establish a trusting relationship between us and then we can do more of this parts work, but we can speak directly to the protectors that don’t understand this firefighter, right? So, let’s do that. Let’s just point out that this is above and beyond what is necessary in this case, I suspect, but let me learn more about it.

Ryan: Okay.

David: Why did you have to have this conversation? Was there supposed to be some kind of decision made as a result of the conversation?

Ryan: Not really a decision made from it, but it was basically a conversation amongst a whole bunch of people to a certain degree, and when I’m talking to people a lot of times, I do appreciate actually people giving their two bits and I might actually learn something, but that’s not what I was getting from this particular individual. [19:02.0]

David: Is this particular individual allowed to have his own opinions that differ from yours?

Ryan: Sure, absolutely.

David: And is he allowed to be a jerk? I mean, does the law in Canada protect his right to be a jerk or an asshole, without breaking any criminal [law] in the actual country?

Ryan: Yeah, I guess it was fine to be himself, yeah, sure.

David: Okay, right, so healthy boundaries are when we take responsibility for our own actions, words, beliefs, feelings, and we don’t take responsibility for other adults’ actions, beliefs, or feelings, okay? Unfortunately or fortunately, in Canada, he’s allowed to be a dick and you’re allowed to not hang out with him. That’s why I was asking, is this a necessary work?

Ryan: We do some sessions. Yeah, we can’t get away from each other, right? We have to.

David: Could you have gone to the bathroom at that point?

Ryan: No, really no, I couldn’t have actually.

David: Oh? Oh, were you stuck in a car with him or something?

Ryan: Yeah. [20:00.0]

David: Okay, and did you have to talk or listen to him?

Ryan: Oh, it was pretty standard that we all are listening to each other.

David: Oh, all of you?

Ryan: Yeah.

David: How many were in the car or the vehicle?

Ryan: Four.

David: Four. Have you ever had a situation where the other two or three people are having a conversation and you’re just thinking about something else, like where you’ve got to go for dinner or think about . . .?

Ryan: Not really, because you’re on headsets, so you’re kind of all–

David: Oh, you’re on headsets?

Ryan: Yeah, we all have.

David: So, if you took the headset sort of off your ear, would that have been–

Ryan: That would have been weird. I would have been weird.

David: Would you have gotten in trouble? Is that against the–

Ryan: Not in trouble, but people would be like, this is . . . 

David: Do you have the right in your job? Because you definitely have the right in Canada to take headphones off, but at your job, do you have the right to do that?

Ryan: Yeah, for sure.

David: So, people will think it’s weird?

Ryan: They would, yeah.

David: People think it’s weird if you’re exercising your rights? I mean, does it matter if they think it’s weird if you have the right to do it? You choose to do it and that’s your responsibility to choose whether to exercise your right or not. Just like he chooses to exercise his right to be a dick, you can choose to exercise your right not to listen. [21:02.7]

Ryan: Yeah, I guess to a certain degree, but when you’re [crosstalk]–

David: What happens then is unhealthy boundaries. I’m cutting you off. Hopefully I can trigger some of this so he can come out and get to know him better. Unhealthy boundaries are when you need that guy to treat you a certain way for you to feel good.

Ryan: Right.

David: And it’s his right. I mean, healthy boundaries are he’s allowed to be a dick and you’re allowed to shut it off, to not listen. If he’s aggressively attacking your space, your physical person, then that’s an actual crime and, luckily, in Canada, that would be a crime. In fact, if he threatened, even if he were to threaten to do so, that would be a crime.

Ryan: Great.

David: That would be assault. But if he has not threatened to punch you or to attack you in any way, and he hasn’t actually physically attacked you, then it’s your responsibility to take care of your own stuff essentially.

Ryan: Not react.

David: Yeah, put your mind elsewhere, or your body elsewhere if you can. I mean, that would be even better, because we have to put up with dicks. [22:01.8]

Ryan: Yeah. Some of us have to.

David: They have the right to be however they are. We have the right to disagree with each other, and that’s sort of a civil society. I mean, if we didn’t, that would be a totally different type of political system, and unfortunately, part of that is they have the freedom to disagree with us and to piss us off, and so do we.

Ryan: Sure, yeah.

David: So, part of getting along in a society is dealing with other people’s rights to be assholes.

Ryan: Yeah, this is a lot to wrap my brain around, because that definitely drives me crazy.

David: Because if you take that right away from them, and then what would result is either a dictatorship in which it would be great if you were the dictator and you could tell that guy to do whatever, do whatever you want him to do, and that might be a power trip for a while. Might be a weird, dystopian society for you.

Ryan: Yeah.

David: Otherwise, it’s like some other guy is the dictator and you’re the bitch, right, and so you have to do whatever the other person says. So, hopefully, you pick a more egalitarian society in which people have the right to be assholes, or in your view, they’re assholes. [23:04.5]

Ryan: Yeah.

David: And healthy boundaries are where you just take care of your own feelings and actions as a result of their feelings and actions.

Ryan: Right.

David: So, then it becomes the question of, how much do you let them affect you?

Ryan: Yeah, that is definitely something that can get to me, for sure.

David: Right. So, nothing good comes out of it, right? It seems like there wasn’t any point or any purpose to arguing with this guy.

Ryan: Correct.

David: You’re not getting any more money. There’s not going to be any kind of good outcome. In that sense, you’ll notice that that anger is misplaced. It’s not effective in getting any of your goals.

Ryan: Okay? How do I handle that, though?

David: In that sense, now you can see this is your dad. It’s not this guy. You’re angry at your dad, but you can’t direct it to him because you haven’t. You haven’t even gone to spit on his grave yet, and that might be one thing you can do. You can go to the grave or whatever his remains are, or even if it’s in your mind, that would be the empty chair, in a sense, and spit venom at him, because that’s where it’s supposed to be directed. [24:07.4]

But instead, because it’s missed, you’re not allowed to, you’re repressing it, you’re just sort of shrugging it off, like, Yeah, whatever. As a result, it bursts out in these ineffective ways at people who sort of resemble your dad, these minor assholes, and it doesn’t serve you. It doesn’t get you anywhere.

Ryan: No.

David: And it’s not pleasant for you. It’s probably not enjoyable. Sometimes it is, like for me, sometimes when I go off on somebody, sort of enjoyable. I’m putting them in their place and we’re getting some kind of effect, like, I’m now going to get good service, or I’m now going to get the manager here and I’m going to get something, or I’m going to get a free steak or something, and I get it and that’s the reason why I’m doing it. But if I’m just sounding off for no reason, then it’s a lot of effort for me. I just did extra work and I got nothing out of it.

Ryan: I got annoyed. [25:00.8]

David: Yeah, being annoyed is unpleasant, right? You can notice that this part of you, now, hopefully, I can help these protectors understand the firefighter more that when the firefighter comes online, he’s actually trying to direct it towards the rightful place, the rightful object of his anger, which is your father and your mother, and until that happens, it’ll be just triggered by all kinds of things that resemble them or resemble their treatment of you, or resemble how you view them.

Ryan: Right.

David: So, that makes sense?Ryan: Yeah, that was one of the things actually, ironic enough, when I was at that first-responder retreat that they talked about, that I needed to work on having healthy relationships with men and women because of my past. [25:41.1]

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David: Right, so you could work on it from the here-and-now angle of actual men and women, and then the psychotherapeutic angle is to work on your relationship with your father and your mother in your mind, and then that would naturally, automatically free up these burdens that you’re carrying that infect your relationships with men and women.

Ryan: Yeah.

David: It’ll be harder to just focus on your relationships with men and women now, without having done the work in the source and the roots yet. [27:05.3]

Ryan: My mom and dad?

David: Yeah.

Ryan: Okay.

David: But it seems like your therapist is leading you there. I mean, it sounds like the last six weeks, like you mentioned, it’s getting there.

Ryan: Yeah.

David: I don’t want to jump the gun too far here. But does that make sense with that part that explodes, or I don’t know what word you use, but kind of comes to your defense about fairness and unreasonableness?

Ryan: Yeah, for sure, that’s definitely something that happens.

David: Good, all right. My view is that you don’t need any fixing, right? There’s nothing wrong with you. You’re just sort of in process. One of the things you mentioned was being disappointed that they were bullies and then that there were men dealing with their own shit. I think everyone’s dealing with their own shit. Just how well do they keep it together in their day-to-day life? We’re all in process. You seem to be in process and going through, making good progress. [27:57.0]

Ryan: I noticed, since I came back especially from the first-responder retreat, I notice it now especially at work or even when I’m dealing with people. I can now see when people are triggered or there’s some issues going on, and I’m a lot more empathetic, ironically enough.

When I’m dealing even with my mom, to a certain degree, I’ve been a little bit more empathetic towards her when she acts the way she does, because I’m thinking to myself, I’m trying to think. I look back to her past, how she was raised with her parents and I know that it was not very good, so now I understand that she’s got some things that she’s holding on to that she’s never going to deal with. Right? So, that’s when they come out.

David: Yeah.

Ryan: And I’m just better at understanding it, for sure, more pathetic, for sure.

David: That’s amazing. That changes everything. That’s great. So, I was saying that to kind of give you this view that I don’t see anything wrong that needs fixing. It seemed like there was an assumption that “Here I am. Make me better.” Unless you give me a goal that you want to aim for, I don’t really know what to fix. [29:04.8]

I mean, I’m curious how life is and where you are in B.C., that kind of thing. I don’t see anything wrong with you, you know what I mean? So, these aren’t going to be things that are wrong or need fixing, or that I don’t think anyone is done with their growth as a human being. It seems like you’re getting a reasonable handle on these, the anger issues, and how they go back to your dad and your mother. Is there anything else that I can help you with?

Ryan: I think a little bit for me, over the years when I’ve picked my partners, the girls I’ve been with, essentially the white-knight syndrome to a certain degree, where I go in there and it’s like I dust them off. I know there’s some issues and I recognize it. I understand it to a certain degree and I think to myself, if I’m just really caring and show them love and I dust them off, then everything is going to be okay. [29:54.5]

But I’m attracted, for some reason, I keep on– That’s what I’ve done. I’ve had four long-term relationships and I’ve always been drawn to or I’ve ended up with those type of girls that have had issues with their fathers or the last one with trauma from stuff. It’s not her fault. But somehow I get drawn to that and I just want to be able to somehow figure out why I do that, why I am drawn to these people when I really–

David: Your career choice.

Ryan: Yeah.

David: You’re helping people in emergencies in desperate need, so yeah, it’s very noble. Again, there’s nothing wrong with that, the desire to—how do you put it?—give care and show people love, and to be attracted to people who could use you like that that you have a role to play.

Ryan: But it hasn’t been successful, though. None of the relationships was successful because of those issues, to a certain degree. I couldn’t fix. Couldn’t fix them, right? [30:58.7]

David: Yeah. How does it feel to let people go through their stuff without interfering?

Ryan: I have a tough time with it.

David: Yeah, so sort of like even when you see unfairness, maybe not even directed towards you, but does that part that gets active or activated or triggered with anger? Feel that way when you see somebody else bullying someone else?

Ryan: A hundred percent.

David: And is there a good outcome as a result of that anger? Do you step in and stop the bully?

Ryan: I step in and I’m not scared to use my words to get people’s attention and whatnot. Yeah, I’ve done it many times.

David: And you were very effective at it. I mean, you’ve been in this career where you’re helping people and with urgent needs for decades, so it’s effective and you’ve been rewarded for it, and it’s been, to some degree, fulfilling.

Ryan: Yes.

David: Otherwise, you wouldn’t have chosen it as a career. So, is it any wonder why you would recreate this dynamic or you would experience this dynamic also in relationships? [32:00.0]

Ryan: Okay.

David: It’s not just happening in your intimate relationships. It’s your whole life.

Ryan: Yeah. Right.

David: Yeah, so thank God there are people like you. First of all, you have to appreciate the goodness in it. I think when you call it a white knight syndrome, and I made videos with that title, we kind of shit on it, like, Oh, this guy’s needy, or something like it’s a bad thing. I want to make sure that we reframe it as neither bad nor good, because there’s good things in it and there’s bad things in it.

Ryan: Yeah.

David: Right, so we want to appreciate the good to start. We’re not going to throw it out, throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Ryan: No, for sure. But, I mean, at the end of the day, I’m no different than anyone else. I would like to have a successful relationship where it’s a safe place and you have a circle in there, right?

David: So, now we’re going back to when it gets you in trouble, right? Even that earlier example of someone cutting you off and saying you were wrong, and then getting angry as a result of that, without any outcome, without any good result from that confrontation. Notice then we were talking about how they have a right to be this way. [33:09.8]

Ryan: Right.

David: These women have a right. Giving them responsibility for their own stuff is a necessary part of their growth and they have the right to fuck themselves up.

Ryan: Yeah.

David: And when we interfere, we deprive them of that growth experience. It’s like that with your kids. You have kids, right? I remember seeing that. Right. How old are your kids now?

Ryan: Twenty-one and 16.

David: Great. So, you must have felt what it’s like to want to step in and do it for them, right, but then let them struggle with it, like tying their shoelaces from way back?

Ryan: Yeah, yeah.

David: And they’ll learn better if they do it. It’s going to take a lot more time, but they’re going to learn better. They have to do it themselves. You can’t just keep doing it for them.

Ryan: Yeah.

David: So, that kind of good parenting, rather than a paternalism of always stepping in and doing it for them, is the right balance when it comes to being with women who need helping. [34:04.7]

Ryan: Right, and it’s hard for me to sit back and watch when I know that they’re doing stuff that’s, one, hurting our relationship or themselves.

David: Part of the attraction to it is because there are parts of you that are very young that are wishing Mom and Dad would come in and actually have saved you back then, and to some degree, you must have then developed a desire to save them from themselves, and all of those are unresolved.

Ryan: Right.

David: Because as a child, you can’t save them, and they couldn’t. They didn’t step up and save you. All of this lack of resolution is finding itself in the most intimate relationships that you have and in your day-to-day as well, but definitely in your intimate relationships.

Ryan: Yes.

David: If we had an ongoing therapeutic relationship, that would be the sort of direction we could go in. It’s discovering the parts of you that were desperate for Dad, of course, and then also desperate for Mom to stop being the way she is and to be the way that you wanted her to be and needed to be. [35:08.2]

Ryan: Right.

David: And now you’re doing it for yourself and you’re doing it for others. You’re reenacting this savior cycle. You’ll feel this growth that you’ve reached this turning point when you can see somebody else struggling and they just ask for your help.

Ryan: You just let them [crosstalk 35:25.0].

David: If it was easy for you to help, like if literally somebody’s falling off a cliff and you just put your hand out, pull them up, that’s fine. In fact, if your saving was helping them with relatively little effort from you, this would be great. But the problem happens when they resist and they have this cycle that keeps them going back, right? And you can’t save them. This achiever in you, and you must have multiple achiever parts, they have to experience the futility of it. For my parts, it was like there’s a scene, it’s very geeky, in Star Trek: The Next Generation, the Picard one with Patrick Stewart. [36:03.7]

Ryan: I’ve watched them.

David: Oh, great, okay, same generation, and there’s this season finale where he’s taken over by the Borg and they use him to destroy their Armada or whatever. Over 2,000 soldiers die in this thing. Then afterwards, after they rescue him, he goes to his vineyard where his brother is in France or something on Earth.

They’re wrestling with each other in the middle of all these grapes and then they get in the ground, and then they’re laughing because this is ridiculous, but then he starts to cry. It’s just beautiful, laughing into crying, and he starts hitting the ground and says something like, “I wasn’t strong. I couldn’t stop them.” He’s just crying.

Then his older brother is just looking at him and being there, I guess, holding the space we call it now, and then afterwards says, “Well, Jean-Luc, you can deal with it here or you can deal with it up there in the Enterprise. Which would you have?” because he’s like, I’m going to retire. I’m just going to go back to this vineyard, and his brother knows that this is him just escaping this and he’s going to live with this trauma. He’s going to have to live with this trauma, these unresolved issues. They’re going to have to work themselves out. But what are you going to do with your life in the meantime, and can you go directly to attack it? [37:15.4]

So, part of what the achievers will feel is that very futility—“I wasn’t strong and I couldn’t stop them. I couldn’t save them. No matter what I do, it just wasn’t enough”—and we have to recognize that, and that is true. And it feels like shit and you’re going to hit the ground, and you’re going to maybe punch the wall and do everything you can. I’m sure, given the length of your career, you must have been in situations where you couldn’t save the person that you got a call for.

Ryan: It’s a funny thing, when it comes to that stuff, I’m very realistic with that, I guess probably from the time on the job, to a certain degree. You have an idea when you’re actually going to be able to make some sort of a difference in those times or there was nothing that we could have done. So, I’m very realistic about that there. I feel like I don’t take a lot of that. I don’t feel like I’ve had those situations over my head. But when you just said what you said there, I felt that after my relationship ended last year. [38:13.0]

David: So that the one that you’re actually trying to save is yourself, the little inner child or your child parts, and that you can save them, but you can save her.

Ryan: No.

David: How are you feeling now? What’s coming up? I see some sadness. Is it okay to feel that?

Ryan: Yeah, I think so, yeah.

David: Yeah, just hold it there. See how long you can just stay with that and let those parts of you that are feeling sad know that you’re here. You’re listening. You’re with them . . . and you understand they were sad . . . and you’re big enough to hold it. Yeah, let it through. Good. And if these tears could speak, what would they say? [39:02.4]

Ryan: That I feel a lot of buried grief, but I feel a lot of regret.

David: You feel a lot of regret?

Ryan: Yeah.

David: And what is it that is regrettable?

Ryan: The relationship ending. That I could have been more understanding.

David: And how could you have been more understanding? What would that have looked like? [40:00.0]

Ryan: Just a bit more empathetic. She said she didn’t feel safe, not physically, but safe near the end to share her feelings, and that hurt that I wasn’t there and I wouldn’t. I look back on it now. It could have been so easy for me to do, but I didn’t.

David: At that point you were already thinking about the divorce, or had you filed yet or not?

Ryan: No, no, it was probably before she even had left.

David: And what were you afraid of then that had you pull back or worried about? [41:00.0]

Ryan: Obviously, losing the person that I care about.

David: Oh, I mean, you said you could have been more empathetic.

Ryan: Yeah.

David: What was keeping you from being more empathetic?

Ryan: Oh, I was just . . . I’m always tired. Caregiver fatigue, I guess, is what it was called that I probably had.

David: It’s draining being with someone who is–

Ryan: It’s very draining.

David: Yeah.

Ryan: Yeah.

David: How is she doing now, do you know? With the trauma, I mean.

Ryan: I don’t know anything. We don’t communicate right now. We haven’t communicated . . . she hasn’t communicated with me in a very, very long time.

David: Oh, was that last year? You had a marriage and ended last year.

Ryan: Yeah.

David: That’s the one you’re talking about, right?

Ryan: Yes.

David: Okay, and these, your kids are with a different woman, right?

Ryan: Yeah, the other previous.

David: Okay. A year is not that long. I mean, you’re old enough to know.

Ryan: No, no, it’s not, no.

David: It goes quite fast.

Ryan: It does, yeah. It goes really fast. [42:03.2]

David: You know what it’s like. I can see that you love somebody, but you can’t save them.

Ryan: Yeah, that’s just definitely what I feel.

David: But you can still love them and recognize that they have to do this work for themselves.

Ryan: Oh, yeah, somewhere there.

David: They won’t.

Ryan: No, that’s right, and that’s the part that’s hard to take. You can see that that’s what needs to be done, but you can’t make them, and then you need to think of obviously the rest of your life, too. Living like that, this would be hard. I don’t think I could do it. It’s just not healthy for me either, right?

David: Right.

Ryan: Just to deal with those things over and over again. I feel for her and I know that what she’s going through is real. I fully believe that that’s real, what she’s going through. I just wish that she would put the importance on herself enough to work on that stuff besides having to be successful in her career. I always said, if she just put some of the effort into herself compared to what she did into her career, that that would go a long way. [43:08.6]

David: Yeah. That’s my sweet spot. Most of my clientele are exactly like that. They sacrifice their personal happiness for their career goals or to make more money.

Ryan: Yeah, or I mean, obviously, money is a driver, but also it’s her image.

David: Oh, right, significance, yeah, absolutely.

Ryan: Be the best.

David: Of course, these are part of their own demons that they’re not aware of, but it’s that society celebrates these burdens, so it’s hard for them to see.

Ryan: Yeah.

David: So, I guess the theme here is being able to still love somebody while watching them struggle necessarily, because they have to do it, and sometimes they won’t succeed in that struggle.

Ryan: Yeah, and that’s what I tell myself all the time. It’s that I know I do care for her and I do love her, and I want nothing but the best for, but it’s hard to stand back and watch what’s happened over the last year with her. [44:04.7]

David: Something you can take into your own therapy work going forward or something to ponder is, I thought you were crying because you’re with this inner-child part and it was breaking to the idea or the thoughts that it was really hard back then, that you couldn’t save. You couldn’t save the parents. You couldn’t save yourself then and they weren’t going to come to save you.

So, this driving need to save others was actually coming from your very young parts that need saving that were forced into a kind of fixing role. That takes time. That’s a very it should be a gentle process as you ease into it to discover these parts of you that are trapped back there, trying to finally fix things.

Ryan: Right.

David: When that gets resolved, because then you can be there for these inner-child parts, then the more compulsive attraction to people who need fixing will start to become healthier or more manageable. But it shouldn’t go away, because it’s actually quite noble to want to help people, right? But it should be more like how you are in your professional capacity. [45:13.7]

Ryan: Be able to step away from it and not hold it.

David: Yeah. It’s really hard, as a past fixer, I can tell you. It’s like watching somebody drown, but in quicksand. You can’t. If you go in there, it’ll actually enable them to a certain degree, and then you’ll get sucked in. You can offer a stick. You can offer them the open door, like, Here it is, anytime you want to come through, I’m over here.

Ryan: Right.

David: That’s why I’m saying like, you don’t have to cut yourself off completely if you love this person. You can still have, like, Here’s the lifeline, but you have to take it and you have to do this work to continue to hold it. I can’t do it for you.

Ryan: Right.

David: And it is a sad thing when you watch someone you love struggle like that, but that’s part of what loving means.

Ryan: Yeah, it’s been a hard year just stepping back and not getting involved. [46:02.6]

David: I can feel that from you, yeah. There’s nothing magical that we can, anyone can do to make this go away. This is part of life and it’s part of the sacrifice of loving. This feeling you have, that’s actually love, which is really crazy, right? But love is painful in this way, where you care so much for someone, but you can’t do it for them.

Ryan: Yeah.

David: That feeling, that sadness, is actually love, because otherwise you wouldn’t be sad, I mean.

Ryan: Yeah, I wouldn’t be grieving.

David: Yeah, and this is part of the cost of it. Thank you for sharing that with me.

Ryan: Thank you for explaining some of those things.

David: Oh it’s easy for me, and I’m very glad that there are people like you in the world. I’m not saying that. I know that sounds like a cliché, but I really am, and I love that you care so much about fairness and that you want to help people, and that it hurts you when you can’t save them. That’s real. That’s moral goodness. [47:02.2]

Ryan: Yeah.

David: And it’s hard and it’s painful, but that’s part of, again, love and goodness. This is the cost.

Ryan: Yeah.

David: But it’s a beautiful pain.

Ryan: Yeah, I wouldn’t want to change myself that way.

David: Yes. And notice this great desire to help others comes from, partly, I mean, sometimes it feels like a burden, but partly it comes from your childhood.

Ryan: There was no one really there for me.

David: Yes, and you’ve turned a really ugly thing into a beautiful thing, but now, hopefully, you’re hearing that there are parts of you that need you now, because your work is directed out of you to others.

Ryan: Which is great.

David: And they’re desperate for you to be there for them. I can see you know what that means and that’s beautiful. The next level for you is inside. It’s just going in.

Ryan: Yeah.

David: And I think you’re getting there, so you’re on the right track. Keep going.

Ryan: Yeah, yeah.

David: That was a pleasure and honor talking to you, getting to know you. Keep in touch. [48:01.2]

Ryan: Yes, I really enjoyed being able to connect with you, and I thank you for all of this, all the different podcasts and different things you’ve had over the years. It’s been actually quite interesting to watch you grow into who you are.

David: Thanks. Thank you. It’s really gratifying knowing someone is watching.

Ryan: Oh yeah, I’m pretty sure, and I loved it.

David: Thanks, likewise. All right, keep in touch. Let me know how things go, and if you have any other follow-up questions, send it to that same email and I’ll be happy to field anything.

Ryan: Sounds good. Thank you very much.

David: All right, my pleasure. Have a good night.

Ryan: You as well. [48:40.0]