Why Sexual Freedom Isn’t Immorality — It’s Integrity | (#061) Beyond Success: Psychology & Philosophy for Achievers, with David Tian, Ph.D.

Through millennia, people have argued about the morality of sex. We talk about freedom, consent, responsibility, but underneath it all is a deeper, more uncomfortable question. Can you be sexually free and still morally good? Why does the thought, now in modern times, of two consenting adults enjoying each other sexually without promises, without guilt, with no strings attached, consensually, still makes so many people flinch? Why does it trigger anger, disgust or moral outrage, especially from those who claim to champion personal freedom in every other area of life? [00:52.3]

This episode is not a defense of casual sex and it’s not a lecture against it. It’s an inquiry, philosophical, psychological and moral, into why sexual openness provokes such discomfort, because, let’s be honest, the resistance to sexual freedom isn’t really about health or family, or even love. It’s about shame. It’s about the parts of us, individual and cultural, that have never learned how to hold desire and dignity at the same time.

When we talk about sex, we’re really talking about power, honesty, responsibility. We’re talking about whether autonomy, the right to choose freely, can coexist with moral goodness, and that’s where the debate always goes off the rails. The old moral frameworks tell us that restraint equals virtue, that self-denial equals purity, but that’s not moral responsibility. That’s moral fear dressed up as virtue, and fear doesn’t make us better people. It just makes us more dishonest. [01:50.7]

The goal today isn’t to glorify indulgence or to shame restraint. It’s to explore how real morality begins when freedom and responsibility meet, when honesty replaces pretense, when women’s sexual autonomy isn’t treated as a scandal, but as a step toward a more honest, integrated humanity. So, let’s start there, not with judgment, but with a question. What if sexual honesty is itself a moral good?

I’m David Tian, a certified IFS therapy practitioner and a Brown University–certified leadership and performance coach. For almost the past two decades, I’ve been helping hundreds of thousands of people from over 87 countries find fulfillment, meaning and success in their personal and professional lives.

Now let’s dig deeper into this juicy topic of sex and shame. Sex has always been more than biology. It’s been a stage where power, morality and survival collide, and to understand why so many people still flinch at the thought of two consenting adults enjoying each other sexually, we have to go way back, even before religion, before marriage, before philosophy, as we know it. [02:56.2]

In this very ancient world, only a tiny fraction of males actually reproduced. Anthropological research and genetic research shows that for every 17 women who passed down their genes, only one man did, 17:1. Remember, it takes one man and one woman to reproduce, and throughout recorded history, the ratio of baby girls to baby boys has been almost always 1:1.

That means, in ancient history, one man reproduced with, on average, 17 women, and on average, that means that 16 males did not get to mate. Even just a century ago, this ratio was still roughly two women to every one man who procreated enough to pass down their genes, which means most of human history has been shaped by male competition for access to reproduction, and for most men, that meant failure in that competition. [03:47.0]

In our evolutionary and recorded history as human societies grew larger, the male elites developed systems to stabilize the chaos that comes out of this competition. But those systems were, of course, never neutral. Once we moved from small tribes to agricultural societies, power concentrated more and more into the hands of the very few.

These male elites, like kings, emperors, chieftains, they controlled the resources, and with them, they controlled the sexual access. You can see this pattern everywhere, from the harems of ancient China to the King Solomon’s 300 wives and 700 concubines, according to the Bible, these elites didn’t just hoard wealth. They hoarded women. They hoarded the mating opportunities and the access to the sex. 

So, what about the other men, the ones left out of this equation, the vast majority? For most of human history, they had to be managed, and that’s where ideology steps in. The male elites couldn’t keep the masses compliant through force alone, so they created moral frameworks, religions, philosophies, state codes. This isn’t the only reason those ideologies sprung up, but certainly the propagation and strengthening, and the selection of these ideologies went into justifying the inequality by turning repression into virtue. [05:09.4]

So, if you couldn’t have with a powerful head, you were told you didn’t deserve it. Sexual restraint became holy. Abstinence became moral superiority. Desire became sin, and the message over all was clear all around the world—you’re not being denied. You’re being purified. This was genius social engineering on the part of these male elites, convince these other men that their lack of sexual fulfillment is a mark of righteousness, and when you do that, they will police themselves and everyone else, and they’ll do it for millennia.

These purity codes evolved, adapted and spread over time. You see them in the Puritans’ terror of pleasure. You see them in the Victorian obsession with propriety. You see them in traditional Asian family systems that shame sexual expression, sometimes in the name of filial piety, obeying your parents. You see them today in modern respectability politics, where women still get shamed for expressing their sexual freedom and men get shamed for desiring sexual freedom. [06:11.8]

Every culture tells some version of the same story that moral goodness somehow equals sexual repression. Yet, as Michel Foucault pointed out in his groundbreaking book the history of sexuality, repression doesn’t kill desire. It just drives it further underground. The more we moralize sexuality, the more obsessed we become with it. We end up talking about sex through the language of sin, power, control, rather than through the language of freedom or connection and love.

Even now in supposedly modern, liberated societies, those old ghosts still whisper, and in some countries in 2025, have retaken ground and taken over. But even for liberal, modern, progressive academics, you can still hear these old ghosts in the quiet voices that say pleasure must be earned, that wanting without promising permanence is somehow dirty, that freedom without guilt is dangerous. [07:16.0]

This is what we call moral residue, the leftover shame that lingers even after the dogma fades. The irony is that the more we repress our sexuality, the less integrated we become as human beings. We fracture ourselves into compartments, the respectable part we show to the world and the hidden part that longs, fantasizes and feels. We get split. We pretend that integrity means purity, when, in fact, integrity comes from integration, from being honest about what we feel and how we love.

The great research psychologists Jonathan Haidt and Steven Pinker have both written about this moral evolution. The point isn’t that morality is bad. It’s that moral codes often lag behind our psychological maturity. What once helped societies get along and stave off the chaos of male competition now keeps modern individuals trapped in shame. [08:12.6]

So, even when people say they don’t believe in those old purity myths about sex anymore, the programming runs deep. It’s in the raised eyebrow of the listeners when a woman says she enjoys casual sex. It’s in the quiet envy when we see someone living more freely than we dare to, and it’s in the defensiveness that flares when our old moral assumptions are questioned. We’ve inherited millennia of conditioning that equates sexual control with moral virtue.

But moral control is not the same as moral responsibility. Control suppresses out of fear. Responsibility understands, and that’s the key shift in perspective here—sexual freedom and moral responsibility are not enemies. They’re partners. The more honestly we own our desires, the more consciously we can act on them. [09:01.7]

That’s why women’s sexual autonomy is not a moral failing. It’s a moral advance. It’s the reclamation of agency for millennia of repression, and men, too, benefit when they stop seeing sexual freedom as a threat and start seeing it as an opportunity for deeper honesty and pleasure with themselves and others.

The path forward is not through guilt or indulgence. It’s through integration, through reconciling our desires with our values, through recognizing that morality and pleasure don’t have to cancel each other out, because the truth is, when we hide behind repression, we are not protecting virtue. We’re protecting fear, and fear dressed up as morality has shaped human sexuality for far too long. [09:47.0]

Let me illustrate the fallacy of old-time sexual morality by taking on the example of one of the best arguments I’ve seen for it. I first read this argument when I was in puberty and I found it really compelling. C. S. Lewis once wrote in his famous book Mere Christianity that sex couldn’t be just a natural appetite like food and hunger, because, as he put it, no one would ever be aroused by a striptease of a plate of food.

For him, that was proof that sex is more than that. It must be spiritual, something beyond mere biology. But Lewis was writing long before amazing food television series like Netflix’s Chef’s Table and the many spin-offs before TikTok cooking videos and the multibillion dollar food porn industry.

Today, millions of people every day literally are captivated by the slow, sensual unveiling of food, chocolate dripping, butter melting, noodles glistening in slow motion. We’ve built entire industries on the eroticization of cuisine. In other words, we do have a food tease, and that completely undermines easy counterexamples against Lewis’ argument. It shows that humans are capable of eroticizing food and drink because it’s wired into our biology and pleasure is how evolution rewards what helps us survive and replicate, eating, sex, creation. [11:14.5]

Here’s another similarity between our biological drives and needs for sex and food. Both food and sex can be fast and shallow, like junk food, leaving us vaguely unsatisfied afterwards, or they can be refined, intentional, deeply nourishing, like an extravagant, multicourse tasting menu that lasts for three hours. Sex doesn’t have to be sacred in order to be meaningful. It can be as varied, creative and human as food. Sometimes it’s a quick snack. Sometimes it’s a masterpiece.

Now let’s look a little bit deeper at the psychological, psychotherapeutic reasons why, in modern times, sex still makes so many people uncomfortable. Sexual shame distorts how people see the world. It turns desire into something dirty and honesty into something threatening, and when that sexual shame goes unexamined, it leaks out as judgment, outrage or moral superiority. [12:07.4]

Most people don’t realize that moral outrage often hides fear. Freud called it projection, the unconscious strategy of attacking in others what we can’t accept in ourselves. Internal Family Systems therapy gives it an even clearer lens. Part of us that moralizes or condemns is usually trying to protect a younger, wounded inner part that carries deeper shame.

When someone reacts with fury to sexual openness, they’re not actually protecting virtue. They’re protecting a frightened part of themselves that long ago was conditioned to equate desire with danger. This is why the reaction to sexual freedom, especially women’s sexual freedom, is so emotional, so out of proportion, so triggering, because it’s not just about sex. It’s about control. It’s about the fear that if we stop repressing desire, then everything will descend into chaos. [12:59.5]

Insecure men, for instance, often resent those who embody what they secretly wish they could, confidence, ease, freedom. The sight of another man at peace with his sexuality exposes their own shame, so they mock it or moralize it to control it, to take it down. They say, “He must be manipulative. No decent woman would want that,” but what they’re really saying is, “I’m terrified of being rejected, so I’ll condemn the person who isn’t.”

Then there are the conservative critics, the cultural guardians of morality. Their outrage isn’t really about ethics. It’s about anxiety. The loss of control over sexual norms feels like the loss of control over the universe, the world, reality itself. If women can choose freely, if men can express desire without shame, then the old social order wobbles, and then it’s just scary chaos of hell, and if you’ve built your entire sense of security on those norms, that wobble feels like an earthquake. [13:56.0]

Finally, the establishment, let’s call it, the institutions that profit from maintaining the old order, the old shame hierarchies. Every age has them, the churches, the media outlets, the political machines, and self-appointed moral influencers who need a sin to sell salvation. If sexual repression collapses, they lose one of their most powerful tools for control. And this goes way back, remember? All the way back, millennia back, because there is nothing more easily manipulated than sexual guilt and moral guilt.

They frame sexual freedom as corruption and sexual shame as virtue. They appeal to our fear of chaos, to our need for belonging, and convince us that repression equals righteousness. But, of course, repression is not righteousness. It’s merely cowardice dressed as discipline. The real danger isn’t in freedom. It’s in the refusal to confront our own fear of it.

IFS therapy gives us a practical way to see this, the part that condemns, like the preacher, the scolder, the internet Crusader, is not evil, per se. It’s protective. It’s trying to keep the person safe from the shame they once felt but can’t handle, or, more accurately, couldn’t handle back then. [15:09.5]

Underneath the moralizing is a scared inner child who learned early on that sexual desire leads to punishment or rejection, or humiliation and eventual abandonment, so as adults, they project that fear outward. If I can control others, then I can feel safe. This is where the irony bites deepest, of course. The very act of moralizing, of condemning sexual expression or sexual freedom reinforces their shame that created the wound in the first place. It’s like drinking poison to protest alcoholism.

This is why sexual shame is so tenacious. It’s self-reinforcing. It convinces you that your repression is moral, that your disgust is virtue, but disgust is not morality. Disgust is fear crystallized into self-righteousness. A truly moral life is not one lived through avoidance or condemnation. It’s lived through integration. [16:05.0]

When you face your own desires without judgment, you become less reactive, more compassionate, more capable of seeing others as full human beings rather than symbols of your own internal battles, because when you repress what’s in you, you end up projecting it onto everyone else. You start policing what others wear, how they love, who they sleep with, all because you can’t bear to face your own repressed longing—and that’s the tragedy of unexamined shame. It makes you a prisoner of the very impulses you pretend to condemn. [16:38.4]

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The only way out is through radical honesty, owning the parts of yourself that scare you, understanding where that shame came from, and realizing that desire itself is not the enemy. It’s the repression of it that warps everything else, and until we heal that, we’ll keep mistaking fear for morality and control for virtue, punishing others for the shame we have not yet healed in ourselves. [18:02.1]

Now, before we go any further, let’s address the elephant in the room. If you know the context of these episodes on sexual shame, these are what triggered the moral outrage in the first place, and so I’m going to admit right up front, yes, there are men, of course, who manipulate. There are men who coerce, who lie, who objectify, who dehumanize.

The pickup subculture, at its worst, earned that reputation deservedly. I’ve seen it up close and I understand why so many recoil at anything that even smells of game. But that’s where moral clarity matters, not everything that makes us uncomfortable is wrong, and not everything that offends our sensibilities belongs in the same moral category.

Before we judge, we have to define, so let’s draw the lines clearly. Coercion is wrong. This, at least, is not controversial. Coercion violates consent and autonomy, which are the foundation of any ethical relationship, sexual or otherwise. To use force, manipulation or intimidation to override another person’s free will is not seduction. It’s an assault. [19:07.7]

Deception is wrong, too, because it corrupts the moral core of human interaction, truth and freedom. When you lie to get what you want, you take away the other person’s ability to choose freely. You turn them into an instrument of your own ends rather than a partner with equal dignity. But mutual informed pleasure between consenting adults? Without coercion or deceit, what moral law does that violate? None, of course.

In fact, when grounded in honesty, it can be virtuous, because it honors autonomy, consent and truth. To call that predatory is to collapse distinct moral categories into one big moral panic. It’s sloppy reasoning disguised as righteousness. Here’s the irony—the same people who shout about female empowerment often flinch when women actually exercise that empowerment sexually. [20:00.7]

To suggest that women might be deceived into enjoying casual sex is not just wrong. It’s profoundly sexist. It assumes they can’t want what they want, that they’re too fragile or naive to handle their own agency. That’s not moral concern. That’s paternalism wearing a fake halo, and that belief is what keeps sexual shame alive in the world.

When two adults meet in honesty and say, “I desire you and I know what this is,” that’s not corruption. That’s clarity. It’s two human beings recognizing their freedom and choosing to share an experience, no deceit, no control, just consent, truth and mutual respect.

Ethical seduction, the phrase I’ve used in this podcast before, might get a bad rap, because people might confuse it with the old tricks of manipulation, but in fact, it’s the exact opposite. Ethical seduction is grounded in radical transparency. It’s saying, “Here’s what I want. Here’s who I am. You’re free to say yes or no. It’s up to you.” That’s not predation. That’s respect. [21:04.1]

If we condemn all seduction as manipulation, we end up infantilizing women, treating them like infants, and we end up neutering the men. We end up denying women their right to choose freely, and we end up denying men their right to express desire honestly. We end up collapsing adult relationships into a theater of suspicion where everyone’s pretending and no one’s actually authentically connecting.

C. S. Lewis once wrote that morality is not about taming our passions but training them. It’s not moral to suppress desire until it calcifies into shame. It’s moral to harness it, direct it with honesty, empathy and respect for the other person’s freedom. When people moralize about players, I’d ask them to clarify exactly what they mean. Are they condemning the deceit? Fine, so do we all. Are you condemning coercion? Good, we’re all on the same page.

But what if what they really object to is two adults choosing sexual pleasure without apology? Then their argument is not about morality. It’s about their discomfort. It’s about their own unresolved shame projected outward as judgment. [22:09.4]

Moral progress doesn’t come from policing sexual desire. It comes from refining honesty, growing in honesty, from replacing repression with integrity, from treating adults as adults capable of choosing, enjoying and learning from the full spectrum of human intimacy. Yes, of course, manipulation itself is wrong. Coercion is wrong, but honest attraction fully expressed and mutually shared, that’s two people meeting as equals, and when honesty and freedom align, that’s not predation or assault. That’s human connection that is truthful, courageous and moral.

In a previous life, I was a professor of philosophy, and I still very much think in those terms, so let’s get precise for a moment. I want to lay out the moral argument for authenticity in sex, not as a slogan, but as a logically valid structure than any serious philosopher could test, and I believe it’s logically sound. [23:04.1]

We begin with two premises, both grounded in virtue ethics and supported by utilitarian reasoning.

Premise 1: for any person, S, if S respects the autonomy of another, then S contributes to moral goodness.

Premise 2: for any person, S, if S acts or speaks honestly, then S contributes to moral goodness.

Okay, now from one and two, we can logically derive the next conclusion. Thus, for any person, S, if S both respects the autonomy of others and acts honestly, then S necessarily contributes to moral goodness.

That’s the simple argument. Now let’s back it up and look at each premise very briefly. Again, Premise 1 is, for any person, S, if S respects the autonomy of another, then S contributes to moral goodness. Okay, so why? Because autonomy is the core of human dignity. To respect someone’s autonomy is to treat them as an end in themselves, not a tool for your own gratification. To deceive or manipulate is to hijack their freedom to make their choice counterfeit. So, respecting autonomy is not optional here. It’s the necessary condition for moral action. [24:10.8]

Okay, that’s Premise 1. Premise 2, for any person is S, if S acts or speaks honestly, then S also contributes to moral goodness. Okay, so honesty in this case, is both instrumentally and intrinsically good. Instrumentally, honesty sustains trust, and trust is the foundation of cooperation and intimacy and social flourishing. Intrinsically, honesty expresses integrity, the harmony between inner truth and outer action. When your speech matches your inner truth, your soul, so to speak, you manifest moral congruence.

Okay, so again, the conclusion is, thus, for any person, S, if S both respects the autonomy of others and acts honestly, then S contributes to moral goodness. In plain language, this means that when someone acts both truthfully and with respect for another’s freedom, that person doesn’t merely avoid wrongdoing. They actively generate moral good—and that is the moral logic of authentic connection, even when it applies or maybe especially when it applies to sex. [25:10.3]

This extends far beyond sex or dating. It applies also to leadership, to friendship, to family, to politics, because authenticity is not self-indulgence. It’s the intersection of two virtues, honesty and respect. When you’re authentic, you speak the truth as you know it, while giving others their freedom to respond or accept or reject or walk away. That’s what makes authentic action moral. It honors the truth and the other person’s autonomy.

Now we get to the utilitarian payoff. Honesty plus autonomy doesn’t just produce virtue. It produces flourishing. It maximizes trust, deepens cooperation, and builds the conditions under which love, creativity and leadership thrive. By contrast, deception may yield short-term pleasure, but it corrodes, sabotages both trust and self-respect. It violates autonomy, replacing real connection with illusion. That’s why manipulative seduction, even if it were to work, is actually morally bankrupt, because it converts another person’s freedom into your tool. [26:17.0]

Authenticity, then, is not just psychologically healthy or socially useful. It is morally good, and this logic holds across every domain of life. In relationships, as an example, it means saying what you feel without disguising it and letting the other person choose freely.

In leadership, again, take another example. It means presenting your vision clearly and allowing others to decide whether to follow you or not. In friendship, it means showing up just as you are, as honestly as you can be, rather than performing merely what you think they want you to be or say. Authenticity aligns virtue with truth and autonomy. It integrates honesty, respect and courage into one coherent act. [26:59.4]

Now let’s go a little bit deeper into how we got into this position in the first place. You see, most people never stop to question where their moral instincts come from. They assume their discomfort means something must be wrong out there instead of asking what’s unsettled inside.

When we react with moral outrage to someone living freely sexually, whether that’s a woman enjoying her sexuality or a man expressing his desire without shame, it’s often not virtue speaking. It’s an old, probably unexamined belief system defending itself.

These reactions are fossils of outdated conditioning. They’re the whispers of parents, pastors, teachers and whole societies that told us, “Don’t be too much. Don’t want too much. Don’t stand out. Don’t be like them,” but when we internalize those voices, we start policing others the way we were once policed, and the result is that every time we see someone living with the freedom we secretly crave, something inside us flinches, rebels, and that flinch, that judgmental reflex is usually this shame in disguise along with the envy or the fear. [28:07.0]

Shame says, “You don’t deserve that.” Envy says, “I want that, but I can’t admit it.” Fear says, “If I let go of these rules, I’ll lose control, and then I’ll be abandoned, and then it’ll really prove I’m not enough,” and together, they build the psychological cage we now mistake for morality.

The truth is, most of us are still living by scripts written for another age, scripts designed to keep order, not to cultivate happiness. They tell us to conform, not to grow, to suppress, not to integrate and when we encounter someone who doesn’t play by those scripts, someone courageous, honest, expressive, alive, their freedom threatens our own illusion of safety or unconscious defenses kick in, and we label them immoral or arrogant or lost. But what we’re really saying is they’re reminding me of the parts of myself that I buried or exiled. This is why authenticity feels so confronting to some. It doesn’t just expose who others are. It exposes who we pretend to be. [29:07.3]

Sexual freedom, when it’s healthy, is not rebellion. It’s integration. It’s the meeting point of pleasure, honesty and compassion. It’s saying I can enjoy this part of life without lying to myself or anyone else, but to get there, we have to let go of the idea that sexual freedom is a threat or that it’s proof of moral decay, because most of the people who rage against it aren’t evil or malicious. They’re scared. They’re mirrors of a culture that’s still learning how to love and connect and have sex without guilt.

Every generation inherits its fears dressed up as values. Our grandparents were taught that modesty equals virtue. Their grandparents were taught that desire equals sin, and so each era passes down its own version of sexual shame like a family heirloom, confusing repression for righteousness. [29:57.3]

So, when someone flinches at sexual honesty, when they recoil at the thought of two consenting adults agreeing to casual sex with each other, it’s not always hatred. It’s unhealed pain. It’s the echo of their own shame projected outward to make it more bearable for them. That’s why the goal actually shouldn’t be to fight them, but to understand them, to recognize that their condemnation is coming from the same place that once upon a time made us afraid of our own desires.

C. S. Lewis in Mere Christianity and plenty of other places wrote that the greatest sin wasn’t gluttony or lust, it wasn’t pleasure itself. The greatest sin was pride. Lust and gluttony are sort of lesser sins, the sins of a childlike nature. Pride, needing to raise yourself up above others is what caused the fall of the devil, Lucifer. In human life, pride is what compels us to place ourselves above others, to judge, to condemn, to feel morally superior. But at a deeper level, pride is a defense. On the flip side, right? It’s a mask for low self-worth, insecurity and fear. [31:02.9]

When you look closely, most moral outrage, especially around sex, is pride in disguise. It’s the fear of confronting our own desires wrapped in the illusion of righteousness, because the deeper moral project here isn’t hedonism. It isn’t libertinism. It’s truth. It’s creating a world where sexuality is neither commodified nor condemned, where pleasure is neither worshiped nor shamed, where we can finally live in harmony with our nature instead of hiding from it.

That’s a society worth striving for, one where we stop pretending that purity means repression, where that pleasure means corruption, where we can look at our desires in the eye without fear, without pretense and without the need to call anyone else dirty for wanting what they want. When we can do that, when we can meet our Shadows with compassion and meet others’ Shadows with understanding, we move closer to genuine morality. [31:57.0]

So much of what we call morality today still confuses control for goodness. We’ve spent centuries, millennia, trying to manage desire, through fear, through shame, through the illusion that repression equals virtue. But what if morality isn’t about suppression at all? What if it’s about honesty with ourselves and with each other?

We’ve traced the roots of sexual shame through history, through psychology, through philosophy. We’ve seen how fear and pride twist natural desire into guilt. We’ve seen how honesty, autonomy and compassion lead not only to moral good, but to human flourishing. When we live honestly, when we express desire without deceit, when we respect another’s freedom to choose, we’re not lowering our moral standards. We’re actually raising them, because morality without truth isn’t morality. It’s performance.

I’ll leave you with this question. What would our relationships and our culture look like if we judged morality not by who we desire or how often, but by how honestly we treat each other in the process? Wouldn’t that world be freer, kinder, more courageous? [33:03.2]

In my coaching programs, this is exactly what we practice, the courage to be honest about your desires, your fears, your limits, and the courage to drop the masks and still stand tall, because true freedom isn’t doing whatever you want. It’s facing who you really are without shame. It’s having nothing to hide, not from others and not from yourself.

That’s the kind of freedom that’s required to build trust, love, fulfillment and happiness, the kind that makes connection, romantic, sexual or otherwise, not just possible, but meaningful. So, if you’re ready to live with that kind of courage, start here with honesty, with compassion, with the simple, radical act of being truthful.

Thank you so much for listening. If you like this, hit a like or give it a good rating on whatever platform you’re listening to this on. Please share it with anyone you think could benefit from it, and if you have any feedback whatsoever, I’d love to get it. Leave a comment. Send me a message. I’d love to get your feedback.Thank you again so much for listening. I look forward to welcoming you to the next episode. Until then, David Tian, signing out. [33:59.7]